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Thread: HDMI and UHD Blu-ray

  1. #1
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    HDMI and UHD Blu-ray

    Here's an article I wrote on HDMI issues and UHD Blu-ray: UHD Blu-ray vs. HDMI: Let the Battle Begin | Sound & Vision

    Let me know what you think.
    David Vaughn
    Technical Writer/Blu-ray Reviewer
    Sound and Vision Magazine

  2. #2
    Administrator Tracy Rainwater's Avatar
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    WOW, what a major pain in the rear. At least with the very early HDMI handshake issues that I experienced, I just made sure my Blu-ray player was powered on first. After a subsequent firmware update, I had no issues.

    This doesn't sound so simple to correct.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Lefisc's Avatar
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    David what an important and interesting article. I too have a JVC projector. I am waiting for the Oppo 4K player but then I have to update my projector. This will take a year or two I bet.

    But thanks for the articles and the test results.
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    Barry
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  4. #4
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    My Sony 4K VW1100 projector works well with an Audioquest Cinnamon 10-meter and this player, but I added another 2 meter hi-speed to it for a better rack position and it stops working.

    The Sony 4K player has been working with the same installation for almost 4 years, although is 8-bit 4:2:0, and the 2-meter extension does not affect it, but if I put an HDMI switcher to manage the 4K sources, even the Sony player does not work.


    However. There is no need for all consumer content that is tipically stored or streamed as 4:2:0 to be up scaled for purposes of HDMI local delivery to the display device.


    All consumer 4K and non 4K content has been (and on the near future will be) the same way: 4:2:0.


    Upscaling to a color sub sampling of 4:4:4 or even 4:2:2 is a waste when the display has been doing and will do that for years, in doing so the player is misusing HDMI bandwidth that is needed for the 10-bit 4K Blu-ray.


    Thanks for the article David, and for the experiment, the picture quality of the 4K Blu-ray Disc is excellent, streaming 4K is a mix bag depending of camera, source, ability of the cameraman, and of course the butchering compression applied by most services, which affects also the 4K content I download from Sony's Entertainment Service.


    Best Regards,


    Rodolfo La Maestra
    Last edited by Rodolfo La Maestra; 04-07-2016 at 02:02 PM.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    Great points Rodolfo...I had quite a back and forth with Samsung's PR rep regarding the needless chroma upsampling.
    David Vaughn
    Technical Writer/Blu-ray Reviewer
    Sound and Vision Magazine

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Vaughn View Post
    Great points Rodolfo...I had quite a back and forth with Samsung's PR rep regarding the needless chroma upsampling.

    4:2:0 chroma subsampling did not exist in the HDMI spec before HDMI version 2.0.

    4:2:0 was introduced in HDMI 2.0 so 2160/60p 8-bit would use under 10.2 Gbps (it only needs 8.91 Gbps as 4:2:0 8-bit), and a hi-speed traditional HDMI wire would suffice.

    However, after the HDMI 2.0 spec was introduced the 4K Blu-ray spec rather adopted 10-bit 4:2:0 for the discs. The 2160/60p content at 10-bit 4:2:0 rather needs 11.14 Gbps (which is beyond the known 10.2 Gbps threshold).

    Moreover, if the 4:2:0 is upscaled as 4:4:4 by the player the 2160/60p content will push the limits of chip-sets, cables, etc.

    According to Texas Instruments analysis as producers of HDMI chipsets, in HDMI the 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 formats consume the same bandwidth. When 8 or 10-bits are used in 4:2:2 for example the unused bits are padded with zeros to complete the 12.

    Therefore, if the 4:4:4 setting on the menu of the Samsung player applies also to 2160/60p (in addition to traditional 1080p content and 2160/24-30p movies) it would be a waste of HDMI bandwidth that serves no purpose other than to make more difficult storage requirements (pirates) and, unfortunately, consumers equipment and connectivity.

    Because my connection with Audioquest HDMI Cinnamon 10-meter (which cost less than $300 I believe, a bargain considering I paid $900 for a VGA cable as thick as boa "in 1998" to connect my Pioneer Elite) worked well with both 4K players I did not have the need to find out what you, David, stated, because I assumed that it was ridiculous for the player to force the output of 2160/60p as 4:4:4.

    I assumed the player would use automatically 4:2:0 when playing 2160/60p (the 4K disc was recorded that way anyway), and use the 4:4:4 setting for upscaling 1080p or for 2160/24p-30p movies, which would need only 8.91 Gbps, and cables and chipsets would not be a problem for 4K movies.

    The 4K Blu-ray spec does not detail that subject, and the Blu-ray Association did not expand the subject on my exchanges with them.

    Although you already stated this matter on your experiment I would be interested if you David could reconfirm that the 4:4:4 setting on the player was actually applied to 2160/60p (rather than switching automatically to 4:2:0 on that format).

    Best Regards,

    Rodolfo La Maestra

  7. #7
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodolfo La Maestra View Post
    4:2:0 chroma subsampling did not exist in the HDMI spec before HDMI version 2.0.

    4:2:0 was introduced in HDMI 2.0 so 2160/60p 8-bit would use under 10.2 Gbps (it only needs 8.91 Gbps as 4:2:0 8-bit), and a hi-speed traditional HDMI wire would suffice.

    However, after the HDMI 2.0 spec was introduced the 4K Blu-ray spec rather adopted 10-bit 4:2:0 for the discs. The 2160/60p content at 10-bit 4:2:0 rather needs 11.14 Gbps (which is beyond the known 10.2 Gbps threshold).

    Moreover, if the 4:2:0 is upscaled as 4:4:4 by the player the 2160/60p content will push the limits of chip-sets, cables, etc.

    According to Texas Instruments analysis as producers of HDMI chipsets, in HDMI the 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 formats consume the same bandwidth. When 8 or 10-bits are used in 4:2:2 for example the unused bits are padded with zeros to complete the 12.

    Therefore, if the 4:4:4 setting on the menu of the Samsung player applies also to 2160/60p (in addition to traditional 1080p content and 2160/24-30p movies) it would be a waste of HDMI bandwidth that serves no purpose other than to make more difficult storage requirements (pirates) and, unfortunately, consumers equipment and connectivity.

    Because my connection with Audioquest HDMI Cinnamon 10-meter (which cost less than $300 I believe, a bargain considering I paid $900 for a VGA cable as thick as boa "in 1998" to connect my Pioneer Elite) worked well with both 4K players I did not have the need to find out what you, David, stated, because I assumed that it was ridiculous for the player to force the output of 2160/60p as 4:4:4.

    I assumed the player would use automatically 4:2:0 when playing 2160/60p (the 4K disc was recorded that way anyway), and use the 4:4:4 setting for upscaling 1080p or for 2160/24p-30p movies, which would need only 8.91 Gbps, and cables and chipsets would not be a problem for 4K movies.

    The 4K Blu-ray spec does not detail that subject, and the Blu-ray Association did not expand the subject on my exchanges with them.

    Although you already stated this matter on your experiment I would be interested if you David could reconfirm that the 4:4:4 setting on the player was actually applied to 2160/60p (rather than switching automatically to 4:2:0 on that format).

    Best Regards,

    Rodolfo La Maestra
    The player sends out every signal as 4:4:4, which I complained about to Samsung engineers. Hopefully a player is released soon that will send out 4:2:0 10 bit for UHD Blu-ray, which isn't the case with the Samsung.
    David Vaughn
    Technical Writer/Blu-ray Reviewer
    Sound and Vision Magazine

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Vaughn View Post
    The player sends out every signal as 4:4:4, which I complained about to Samsung engineers. Hopefully a player is released soon that will send out 4:2:0 10 bit for UHD Blu-ray, which isn't the case with the Samsung.
    David,

    Rather than fighting a battle with Samsung or waiting your luck for the next 4K Blu-ray player, crossing the fingers that 2160/60p is output as 4:2:0 and not irrationally upscaled to 4:4:4 as you said the Samsung does, you may want to consider installing HDFury Integral, which will bring the 4:4:4 2160/60p high bandwidth output of the Samsung player to its original 4:2:0 state so all your equipment, HDMI chipsets, and cables investment can be reused.

    This unit is a 2x2 HDMI 2.0a matrix switcher/splitter that also converts HDCP 2.2 to legacy HDCP to allow existing non-HDCP 2.2 AV Receivers to be on the 4K HDCP 2.2 signal path, which greatly simplifies the connectivity hurdles 4K brings to most legacy HT systems.

    I just ordered a unit to review it on my magazine (and test it with my two 4K players).

    https://www.hdfury.com/shop/splitter...60-444-600mhz/


    Good luck David,

    Rodolfo La Maestra
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