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  1. #51
    Senior Member Stephen Trask's Avatar
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    The main fraud is neither doctors nor patients but criminal organizations providing no services at all. Doctors over prescribe for a lot of reasons, not just fear of lawsuits Patients don't over-indulge
    on health care because it's some all you can eat buffet. That doesn't even make any sense. Even co-pays add up and going to the doctor is not fun. It takes time out of one's life. You might have some anecdotal evidence of people who do this but it's not a major problem. the major problem is fraud on a massive scale by phantom providers set up to commit fraud.

    May I add, it is very difficult to have a political debate when one side is so willing so simply make sh*t up (like that ridiculous video). I know that people on different sides of an argument will select and frame facts in order to make their point but the right has a habit of simply manufacturing it's own reality and then debating from there.

  2. #52
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    Stephen, when I mention patients, what I mean to say is when their copay is so low, they go to the doctor for every little thing instead of waiting a day or two to see if it's just a little bug. Trust me, when it costs you $240 out of pocket for an office visit, you definitely want to be sick to pay that much! I don't know if you have kids or not, but they get sick A LOT when they are in grade school. One thing we learned is they need to have a fever for 48 hours before we take them to the doctor and it has worked out extremely well...in most cases, their body fights off the bug without a doctor's assistance. According to our doctor, we are doing the prudent thing. Unfortunately (according to him), we are the rarity. He see's multiple people a day that would be just fine on their own but want the assurance of a doctor to tell them everything will be OK and they don't realize the cost of going to the doctor is more than their $10 or $20 copay.
    David Vaughn
    Technical Writer/Blu-ray Reviewer
    Sound and Vision Magazine

  3. #53
    Owner-Publisher Jerry Del Colliano's Avatar
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    Stephen, when I mention patients, what I mean to say is when their copay is so low, they go to the doctor for every little thing instead of waiting a day or two to see if it's just a little bug.
    David - this is where the Ron Paul stuff gets scary. Do you think say Jim Hensen, creator of the Muppets, would have been better off not going to the doctor? How about how many women who are pregnant who can't afford care? How about their babies and the UBER-HIGH infant mortality rate in this, the richest country in the world? You don't get that with rich women who can afford the best care or in countries where the government pays for it.

    The fact of the matter is that Obama Care is about the people pooling together to give themselves buying power with insurance. Libratarians get upset about the gov telling them that they MUST buy insurance but we already do that car insurance and it is for the better isn't it. Simply put - a small business can't buy good insurance today in America. I've tried. Many of my business owning friends have too. Thankfully my wife works for a bigger company and I get insurance through her. Obama Care creates a HUGE yet OPTIONAL plan for people to buy into that will be powerful in terms of helping people be more healthy (a basic right over say tax decreases for the rich) in an optional system. Its not socialized medicine like you have in places like the UK and elsewhere. That WOULD ramp up taxes and isn't really that good. This is an OPTION for buyers. What's not an option is NOT having health insurance just like you can't drive a car without car insurance.

  4. #54
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    Jerry,

    Are you prepared for rationed care? Because that's what is coming wiht Obama Care. I have family in Canada that is living this right now. If they need surgery bad enough, they come to America or go to Asia and pay for it themselves because the waiting lists are so long. Furthermore, what happens when no one wants to be a doctor anymore? Will the government then step in and MAKE people become doctors?
    David Vaughn
    Technical Writer/Blu-ray Reviewer
    Sound and Vision Magazine

  5. #55
    Senior Member Stephen Trask's Avatar
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    It would be nice to have a debate in which all of the "facts" aren't anecdotes drawn from personal experience. And numbers cooked up by the CATO Institute don't really count, either.

    But if we want to get into personal experience, I know of a number of skilled, dedicated general practitioners who quit medicine because of the frustration of dealing with HMOs. Often these frustrations involved an HMO bureaucrat overruling a doctor with regard to treatment.

    A close relative, I'd rather not say who, works for a very good HMO reading and ruling on denial of care appeals. According to her, every patient is deserving of the care but she can't approve everyone or she would lose her job. So, some people get the care they need and some don't. She literally rations care.

    I have been enduring a condition called eustachian tube dysfunction for a number of years. After enduring it for as long as I could I sought medical treatment. I had to see my GP a number of times and try a number of nasal sprays before I was allowed to see an allergist, as it was determined that I had allergies. The allergist determined, after extensive testing, that I in fact don't have allergies and yet I had to continue to take spray after spray for two years before the HMO would allow me to see an ENT. The eustachian tube dysfunction was diagnosed and then I began another regimen of sprays before it could be justified to the HMO that I needed a scope and VIOLA! I need surgery. Over two years, countless doctor's office visits, innumerable nasal spray protocols all to justify to the HMO that I need proper treatment. And I have a very good plan.

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