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  1. #1


    Simaudio CP-8 Owners: Did you know that it was a Denon?

    Simaudio has recently disclosed that their $18,000 CP-8 Pre/Pro was, in practice, a modified $1,199 Denon AVR-2808CI. But, they say this has been well-known for some time…

    “We don’t hide it. It’s a Denon engine under the hood, and I say it with pride, because it’s reliable and a Denon engine is a high-performance engine.”

    You can read the details here:

    http://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp...cp-8-processor

    So, are there any Simaudio Moon CP-8 owners out there? When you bought your CP-8, did you consider it well-known that it was a modified Denon?

  2. #2
    Owner-Publisher Jerry Del Colliano's Avatar
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    Yawn...

    This is the same factually WRONG argument that Audioholics.com made about the Lexicon Blu-ray player although SimAudio is handling it better. To go back in history... Harman took the chassis of an Oppo and made major changes to the firmware as part of the THX certification. They then shared that with Oppo who offered their users an upgrade. People wanted to say they were the "same" but without Harman going for the THX cert AND SHARING - they wouldn't have been. Should Harman have made upgrades to the DACs and other elements of the players. ABSOLUTELY YES - a total mistake on their part. Did the Lexicon player sell well despite the butchering it took from a web publication who SELLS the Oppo and NOT the Lexicon? Yes it did.

    Small AV companies simply can not innovate FULL FEATURE AV products as well as they can modify good ones. I think that's what SIM is doing here. I like the company and what they are doing. I like Denon too.

  3. #3


    So, it's okay for a company to take the work of another without their permission?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Del Colliano View Post
    Yawn...

    This is the same factually WRONG argument that Audioholics.com made about the Lexicon Blu-ray player although SimAudio is handling it better. To go back in history... Harman took the chassis of an Oppo and made major changes to the firmware as part of the THX certification. They then shared that with Oppo who offered their users an upgrade. People wanted to say they were the "same" but without Harman going for the THX cert AND SHARING - they wouldn't have been. Should Harman have made upgrades to the DACs and other elements of the players. ABSOLUTELY YES - a total mistake on their part. Did the Lexicon player sell well despite the butchering it took from a web publication who SELLS the Oppo and NOT the Lexicon? Yes it did.

    Small AV companies simply can not innovate FULL FEATURE AV products as well as they can modify good ones. I think that's what SIM is doing here. I like the company and what they are doing. I like Denon too.

  4. #4


    This is really nothing new. Should I get ticked off because my Oppo has the same guts as the Cambridge Audio Azur player? How about the fact that companies like NuForce make tweaks to Oppo players. How about this, Oppo doesn't even use unique internal components, in their players. They rely on another company to supply that, and then build their player around that.

    We live in a modular society when it comes to technology. Unless you are a HUGE company with DEEP R&D pockets, you take a quality product and adapt it.

    Sim Audio, Oppo, Cambridge Audio Lexicon and others, don't have Sony, R&D budgets. They do make quality products.

  5. #5
    Senior Member TrippleJ's Avatar
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    In guess in the end it is all about the product itself. Does it satisfy what the owner wanted??

  6. #6


    Quote Originally Posted by Tracy Rainwater View Post
    This is really nothing new. Should I get ticked off because my Oppo has the same guts as the Cambridge Audio Azur player? How about the fact that companies like NuForce make tweaks to Oppo players. How about this, Oppo doesn't even use unique internal components, in their players. They rely on another company to supply that, and then build their player around that.

    We live in a modular society when it comes to technology. Unless you are a HUGE company with DEEP R&D pockets, you take a quality product and adapt it.

    Sim Audio, Oppo, Cambridge Audio Lexicon and others, don't have Sony, R&D budgets. They do make quality products.
    As for NuForce specifically, please read the article:

    "Modifying production audio gear for greater performance is nothing new. Forums are packed with folks looking to take a few bucks worth of components from Part Express and upgrade the crossover in their commercial speakers. Some, like the Oppo BDP-93NE (Nuforce Edition), are complete products sold at retail. However, the origin of the original product in those instances is quite clear from the manufacturer’s printed information. Not so with the CP-8, and we’d be curious to hear from CP-8 owners as to whether they knew the core of their new kit was made by Denon."

    I have no problem with that. The Lexicon/Oppo Blu-ray play was fine with me because Oppo was in the loop. I still wouldn't buy one, but somone might.

    My issue is that all this was done without Denon and Audyssey's permission and against their wishes when they found out, and then, according to Simaudio sources and their literature, both names (along with Dolby, DTS, and more) were used to market the product. Wouldn't you defend the right of Denon to disassociate with an un-tested implementation of their R&D. Don't you think Audyssey is entitled to protect their trademark on unauthorized products that may include a poor implementation of their technology and damage their name? Are you saying that trademark is irrelevant because it helps an AV company move millions of dollar of product that they couldn't have done otherwise because they freely admit that would have put out a buggy system late to market at an R&D expense they couldn't bear?

    What if I took a Home Theater Review article and republished it under the Home Theater Review name, but changed every 5th word?

  7. #7


    Quote Originally Posted by TrippleJ View Post
    In guess in the end it is all about the product itself. Does it satisfy what the owner wanted??
    To the purchaser, yes. But what of the people who actually created the technology that gives the user what they want? Would it be okay for my to appropriate the work that you do at your job, without your knowledge or permission, and charge more for it, as long as the customer was happy?

  8. #8


    Quote Originally Posted by egovector View Post
    So, it's okay for a company to take the work of another without their permission?
    So you are saying that SimAudio stole the design from Denon, without an agreement or compensation to the manufacturer of the internal chassis? I think there would have been an even bigger story here, if that had happened.

    Even though the SimAudio has some of the same internal components, they are different in many ways that really count.

    For one, and a big one in my book, SimAudio replaced the typical power supply transformer with a toroidal transformer. These are one of the most important components to consider, when building the amp section of any AVR. Do all companies use them? No they do not, and Denon doesn't in any of their AVRs, that I know of.

    Toroidal transformers are much quieter and more efficient, meaning you get higher current capability, than the traditional transformer in the Denon. They are also more expensive. You can use that extra current for something useful like, oh, making clean sound.

    The SimAudio also includes a pair of balanced inputs and a full set of balanced outputs. Theses are not stock Denon components either.

    There may be other differences, but these are the ones that jump out at me at first glance.

  9. #9
    Owner-Publisher Jerry Del Colliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by egovector View Post
    So, it's okay for a company to take the work of another without their permission?
    Companies buy parts, chassis, processors, engines (call it what you will) all the time from other companies. They PAY for these things. They generally work together on these projects. Perhaps not always but in most cases.

    If someone wants to take a Pioneer DVD player and make into a hot-rod player, I guess they can do that. Same with say a Sony PS3 and so on.

    There was a TV commercial talking about how Ferrari uses a break technology from Cadilac (GM).

  10. #10
    Owner-Publisher Jerry Del Colliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by egovector View Post
    As for NuForce specifically, please read the article:

    What if I took a Home Theater Review article and republished it under the Home Theater Review name, but changed every 5th word?
    Thankfully, HomeTheaterReview.com is a Google News site with well established authority with the almighty Google. They know our writers. They know our content comes from us. This was at one point a BIG ISSUE in past Google updates and something that we worked hard to fix.

    People quote and reprint Internet content all the time. Hopefully, they would link to us which helps Google see that the content came from us thus a benefit to HomeTheaterReview.com.

    If someone was stealing content and changing it and was benefiting from it - I would send them a cease and desist. If they didn't I might sue if there were damages to be had.

    Its not too different than if you wrote a hit song (think: "Under Pressure" by Queen) and someone (think and I am sorry to make you think of this - Vanilla Ice) takes your melody with little change and makes it a hit song without much change. If there was money being made REST ASSURED that someone is waiting to sue. D+M have plenty of lawyers and if they thought there was an issue they could make SIM stop. My bet is that they actually SELL Sim the parts which helps them be more profitable but that is just a guess.

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