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  1. #41


    Quote Originally Posted by BassEarDrum View Post
    Green,

    I'd like to hear your thoughts. There is no right or wrong answer and there will be no debate from me.

    Here is a question if you don't mind answering:

    When all of the high capacity military style type guns and gone, do you see an America that has fixed the murder in schools problem?

    Thanks
    Bass,


    To answer your question simply - no, I don't think that hypothetically getting rid of all military weapons will end school/mass shootings. IF we could do it, do I think it could greatly curtail not only the number of shootings, but when they unfortunately do occur it will help reduce the number of casualties.


    So many thoughts, but they all start with the caveat - assuming we have done everything we can to keep guns out of "crazy" peoples hands. But, there is a problem there also. Crazy is really a term for mental health. So, first comes the mental health thoughts.


    1. Dealing with most, if not all mental health issues is a lifelong issue. You can be fine one week, you can be fine for a year. Many times someone doesn't KNOW they have a mental health issue until they break down the first time. I do agree we need to do more with mental health, but it's a small part of the problem/solution. Important yes, but small part. As a person gets older more of this typically gets fleshed out. Plenty of studies on when people actually mature.


    2. Waiting periods - suppose I subscribe to the thought that if you need a gun RIGHT NOW, then you absolutely do not need the gun right now. Why the hell anyone cares if they can buy a gun now, or wait 2 weeks to have said gun... beats me. If you need it right now, well then you probably should be talking to the police. So, seems to me even if we don't eliminate any guns, a pretty long/lenghty waiting period makes sense.


    3. 2nd amendment is not going away. I know that, you know that. I think we all also know that it was written in a much different time, under much different circumstances. I can yell fire in a packed theater... but i can also be prosecuted for it.


    4. Regarding the 2nd amendment. I'm for waiting periods, background checks, and holding the owner of a gun responsible for ANYTHING that happens with that gun. You have a kid with mental health issues, then you damn well better make sure you keep those guns locked down. Will it stop something like Sandy Hook - beats me, but people need to think about these things also.


    5. I know that people can give me every excuse to why they need to own an AR, but really it comes down to one thing - I want to own the damn thing. You are not going to stop an oppressive government with it, if you need it to take down a boar... then maybe you suck at hunting. They were designed to do one thing only, kill people quickly. BUT - I see the flipside - stop the sales, yes there is an illegal market for them and frankly it drives up the value of those available. But the reasons people give for having to own one - it's bullshit. It comes down to this. I want to own one. You don't need one to hunt, you don't need one to protect yourself. You just want to have one.


    6. "They start with the AR's, and next thing you know it's all guns". Nope, won't happen. Here in Michigan most democrats I know also realize how important hunting is to the economy.


    7. "It won't stop all murders and attempted mass killings" - No, you are right also. But I sure don't remember too many pissed of kids with pipebombs they built in the garage taking out 17+ kids at a school in the 80's.


    8. "look at chicago, how have the gunlaws helped there" - Different argument, different problem. Murders happen everyday, with guns bought illegally, most of which are trafficked up from the south ironically.


    9. "give the teachers guns" - sure, that's going to work. Just what every young college grad needs on top of 30 kids, reduced budgets, and screaming parents. The responsibility of becoming an expert marksman (or at least a hell of a shot) under the pressure of taking aim at a moving target with a gun that shoots faster than yours, killing someone else, doing everything they can to keep kids out of harms way... sure that is going to work. Insane argument.


    10. I have some other thoughts on how the gun industry should be getting out ahead of this and finding ways to use technology to combat it also. (That is another discussion entirely). But most other industries are pressured to make their products safer. Why not the gun industry?


    11. Suppose the other option is that we just all have guns, carry them on our hips and it's the wild west. "Go ahead, make my day". This is the old "the only way to stop a bad person with a gun, is to have a good person with a gun" So I guess at what age should we all start carrying guns?


    I realize that if anyone looks hard enough, picks apart an argument they can find an angle that sounds good enough, and plausible enough that they can get those that lean one way to agree with them.


    But, we have a problem, a big problem. It's really, really affecting a generation of kids. What we are doing now is NOT working. We have to try something.
    Last edited by green giant; 03-06-2018 at 03:30 PM.

  2. #42
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    Just what I thought! Lots to chew on here! Thanks!

    You've probably seen the "safe room" links before so I won't post one here but I think they may be an idea that works! Safe and sound in a bullet proof space with a tv monitor showing you what's out side of the room. They also say they are rated for safety during an F5 Tornado.

    It would be a heck of a lot better than stacking kids in a freaking closet for crying out loud. Kinda like the olden days when kids were told to get under their desks and cover their heads if a nuclear bomb was on it's way. That's going to work just fine. lol

    Or my favorite, get those kids in this hall, sit down and cover your heads. Here comes a tornado. I experienced an F5 tornado, the school and the entire hallway where the kids would have been if the tornado had hit during school hours was totally demolished.

    So much of our brilliant "solutions" for safety is just so much total BS. This world needs to put their heads together and start making sense and spending some money on REAL shelters if we say it's important to keep children safe.

  3. #43


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reinforced doors with a way to secure it from inside the classroom and bullet-proof glass would be a big step.

    Of course there would have to be other measures taken to prevent someone from bringing a gun into the school, to begin with. Just up the road, an 8th grader brought a handgun to school. They didn't shoot it, but the kid was "stupid" enough to bring a gun to and into the school especially after the Florida shooting was such a big news story.

    Also about 15 minute drive away, a teacher had a handgun in their classroom. He locked himself in his room, alone. When the students couldn't get into class they told the principal who went to the room and found the teacher sitting at his desk agitated. After attempting to talk to him the principal started to unlock the door and the teacher pulled out the gun and fired a shot out the window.

    In case you missed it, these were both involved legally obtained handguns. WTF is wrong with people today?

  4. #44


    I'm going to weigh in on this topic.

    1. Teachers shouldn't have weapons. Liability (you don't know how many court cases are brought up in education - I see it all the time as I work in education as an IT guy). We're opening up an entire bag of worms with that. I'm glad my Supt. stated that no teachers will be armed in our district. Instead, we will have SRO at every school (and my Supt is a Republican).

    2. How can these criminals be either captured alive, or they finish themselves off, but unarmed people of color are put down all the time? Even with a CC license - it's dangerous for a person of color to be armed...that's not fair.

    3. Reasonable legislation is necessary in this area, but if it remains the wild west....lets just say that I frequent the range now.
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  5. #45


    Quote Originally Posted by David Vaughn View Post
    Now here's a proactive approach that the left won't like because it doesn't involve taking away second amendment rights: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ana/362210002/
    That I actually like.
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  6. #46


    Quote Originally Posted by David Vaughn View Post
    Hey Jerry, remember how I said that I wouldn't rely on the police to save you or your family if you were in danger? Well, it turns out there was an officer assigned to this school, he was armed, yet he was too much of a pussy to go in and confront the shooter. So, we have a failure on many levels here: First, the local police had over 30 contacts with this sicko, yet never arrested him even though he made threats with a gun previously (if the radio report I heard today was correct), then you have the FBI called not once, but twice, warning about this dirtbag and his desire to be a school shooter, but yet again, our vaunted Federal Government failed to follow their own damn procedures to refer the case to the Miami FBI office. Finally, you have a police officer at the campus who heard the shooting, yet stood there like a dumb ass and did nothing about it. So much for "protect and serve." He just wanted the cushy school job so he would be "safe."

    If the football coach who gave his own life to save countless kids was packing, you can bet your ass that he would have engaged the shooter and he most likely would have saved more lives in the process instead of these kids being sitting ducks with no protection what-so-ever. Furthermore, even if the gun measure proposed after Sandy Hook was passed, it wouldn't have stopped this dumbass kid from getting his weapon. More laws aren't the answer...look at what Israel has done to combat violence and that's the solution. "Gun Free Zones" are just another stupid left-wing measure meant to make people feel good and don't do a damn thing to stop criminals who look at those zones as "Target Rich Environments."
    Engagement rules. I've been in the Military, Law Enforcement and Education/IT fields. If the officer was waiting for back up and holding his position - that's common in AS drills. Information is key - if you're taken out, no line of direct information. I'd love to hear the radio transcripts of what transpired. They're taught not to "Lone Ranger" an AS situation. Here's a good read for you: http://www.policeforum.org/assets/do...nts%202014.pdf

    AS for arming a teacher...you just don't arm someone and say - there ya go! Imagine if that coach had been armed and hit the wrong target, doing damage to a student or another teacher? If you save other children, but put down another by accident - do you think those parents are going to say "Well he did save the other kids lives" no way!!! He'd be sued, the district would be sued, maybe even the state. Schools are not the military - we have a rule of "acceptable losses", in schools there can be no such rules.
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  7. #47


    Quote Originally Posted by green giant View Post
    AMEN

    While it won't be fast enough, the kids that are currently in high school and college now will be the ones to change the gun laws. They are the first generation that have lived their entire lives in fear while at school.

    Most (if not all of us) that post on this page grew up in one of the best times to be a kid in this country. Mid 70's - early 90's.

    No real fears of being bombed like my parents generation, and no real fear of being shot up at school. I have a 15 year old daughter (along with 13, 8, 6). It's a constant fear, and topic of discussion amongst her and her friends. I'm fully convinced if we don't make the changes now, they will be in about 20 years. It's too long, but it's going to happen.

    I also believe most americans are not against hunting rifles at all, it's about 50/50 on handguns and conceal and carry.

    But the guns most often used in mass killings - the day is going to come when it will be very, very difficult to legally get one, if at all.
    Naw I grew up with that fear....I went to school in Detroit. We had issues all the time - but it never made it beyond the local news....hmmmm?!!! We had to sign notices in the 4th grade not to bring weapons to school.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prerich View Post
    Engagement rules. I've been in the Military, Law Enforcement and Education/IT fields. If the officer was waiting for back up and holding his position - that's common in AS drills. Information is key - if you're taken out, no line of direct information. I'd love to hear the radio transcripts of what transpired. They're taught not to "Lone Ranger" an AS situation. Here's a good read for you: http://www.policeforum.org/assets/do...nts%202014.pdf

    AS for arming a teacher...you just don't arm someone and say - there ya go! Imagine if that coach had been armed and hit the wrong target, doing damage to a student or another teacher? If you save other children, but put down another by accident - do you think those parents are going to say "Well he did save the other kids lives" no way!!! He'd be sued, the district would be sued, maybe even the state. Schools are not the military - we have a rule of "acceptable losses", in schools there can be no such rules.
    Their manual clearly states to go in and engage the shooter, not set up a perimeter. All one has to do is look at the last school shooting and see what that resource officer did--he engaged the shooter and killed the SOB...only one life lost versus 17.

    Also, the statistical chance of dying in a school shooting since 1999 is approximately 640,000,000 to 1. The odds of dying in a car crash are about 619 to 1, but to die from a drug overdose is 93 to 1. These kids protesting have their priorities completely misplaced (and the numbers prove this out). That being said, I'm perfectly fine with an armed police officer at every school and/or doing what Indiana has done in the article mentioned above.
    David Vaughn
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  9. #49


    Quote Originally Posted by David Vaughn View Post
    Their manual clearly states to go in and engage the shooter, not set up a perimeter. All one has to do is look at the last school shooting and see what that resource officer did--he engaged the shooter and killed the SOB...only one life lost versus 17.

    Also, the statistical chance of dying in a school shooting since 1999 is approximately 640,000,000 to 1. The odds of dying in a car crash are about 619 to 1, but to die from a drug overdose is 93 to 1. These kids protesting have their priorities completely misplaced (and the numbers prove this out). That being said, I'm perfectly fine with an armed police officer at every school and/or doing what Indiana has done in the article mentioned above.
    Depends on when he received his training and if they completed follow-up training explaining new procedures (as situations like this are generally handled by SWAT officers). That's where I would look first - training. If he and two other officers did the same thing - I'd look at the SOP's - which may need updating and new training implemented. Things like this happen in the military as well. Also - you did read that 1/3 of officers engaging an AS alone are injured or killed by the AS. That's 33%

    However I'm also in agreement with what Indiana has done or having SRO's in every school. I don't see why there's a complaint about clear backpacks either - when you're on school grounds there is no expectation of privacy with the exception of the restrooms and shower areas.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member David Vaughn's Avatar
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    We can agree on that...

    The deal with the Florida shooting was that it was an abject failure in government. The warning signs were definitely there, yet no one did anything about it. The FBI was also warned and dropped the ball. That's what people should be talking about today, not restricting gun rights. If proper procedures were followed, this scumbag wouldn't have legally been able to buy a gun making his task that much more difficult to achieve.

    Sadly, our system will rule him insane and the tax payers will pay for his care for the rest of his life. He should be sent before a firing squad and killed--end of story.
    David Vaughn
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